| Well... Because you can. You can judge anything in an objective manner, though that doesn't necessarily mean you'll arrive at an objective conclusion. Why do I even bother offering wisdom to fools... |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| @Nocturn3 Oh boy that's a lot of things your assuming I'm saying. Anime is a medium that doesn't deal with the concrete rather with the abstract. As such, you can't say that you're being objective in saying that a "story is good because it is well structured" compared to saying that a carbonated water has acidic properties. I mean sure there are entire school of thoughts behind researching what makes a good story but at the end of it all they are dealing with an abstract and they can only deal with consensus to actually agree with a standard. Hence, my point that it isn't really "objective", it's more of guides or suggestions on what makes a good story. MortalMelancholy said: Well... Because you can. You can judge anything in an objective manner, though that doesn't necessarily mean you'll arrive at an objective conclusion. Why do I even bother offering wisdom to fools... What does it mean to judge something in an objective manner? Does it even take into consideration that anime as a whole deals with the abstract. Animation maybe the only element that deals with the concrete idea, the question "does it move well?" The fact that an animation moves well can be appreciated differently and that the question that if good animation translate into a good anime would yield different answers. |
ethotJan 4, 2018 1:55 AM
| I think i know where the problem lies These humans do not recognize that their metrics for evaluation are not valid metrics for judgement to conclude good versus bad For example Someone can say this show is good because it is well structured then again that same person can be seen at another time saying ooooh this show is good its so random. ive not seen FLCL but ive heard it being praised like that Some people say ooh Clannad so bad girls have big eyes others say Clannad is beautiful from the beginning when she opens her big beautiful eyes That being said it is okay to evaluate a show and say it has this and this features. like plotholes, structure, etc. they are things that can be measured to a certain extent But they do not lead to a universal agreeable opinion of good versus bad because some weirdos liked Eromanga sensei and that is proof enough |
Paradigmatic said: @Nocturn3 Oh boy that's a lot of things your assuming I'm saying. Anime is a medium that doesn't deal with the concrete rather with the abstract. As such, you can't say that you're being objective in saying that a "story is good because it is well structured" compared to saying that a carbonated water has acidic properties. I mean sure there are entire school of thoughts behind researching what makes a good story but at the end of it all they are dealing with an abstract and they can only deal with consensus to actually agree with a standard. Hence, my point that it isn't really "objective", it's more of guides or suggestions on what makes a good story. MortalMelancholy said: Well... Because you can. You can judge anything in an objective manner, though that doesn't necessarily mean you'll arrive at an objective conclusion. Why do I even bother offering wisdom to fools... What does it mean to judge something in an objective manner? Does it even take into consideration that anime as a whole deals with the abstract. Animation maybe the only element that deals with the concrete idea, the question "does it move well?" The fact that an animation moves well can be appreciated differently and that the question that if good animation translate into a good anime would yield different answers. It's true that you won't be able to judge artistic or aesthetic value objectively, but there's plenty that can be. As far as animation itself goes, you should be asking; "Is the art consistent?" "What more does the animation tell you than just dialogue alone?" "How frequent are the keyframes in the animation?" "How much, if at all, do they re-use stock footage?" "How much did they make use of shitty cheap CGI? " etc. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
Nocturn3 said: Paradigmatic said: It's still everywhere. As long as someone is talking about an anime or anime in general you'll still see it. And from where I'm sitting only one question is enough to kind of relegate this meme/myth to the trash. That is "What makes you think that what you think is an objective way of judging anime really is an objective way of judging it? I mean sure, you can say that animation, how the frames move etc. can be judge objectively parsed but that only has weight for those who care about it to actually affect the overall effect the show has to them. If shows have different impact to people then why do you people still insist in judging/parsing anime "objectively"? And the whole thing comes back to, "How can you be so sure?" And when it comes to reviews, I don't think you need the illusion of objectivity here. You can be as biased as you want, reviews are just here to highlight what you can expect from a show. The more subjective it is, the more you understand what the show is and if it is something that'll interest you. Heck, a negative review can even interest you in a show because of the reasons laid out by the reviewer and vice versa. There's no room or even a reason to stick to objectivity here either. It's high time we bury the hatchet in this meme/myth that overstayed it welcome. Don't you think so too? Even though you can't be objective about taste/preferences, you can be objective about quality. There is plenty you can be objective about, such as: Quality of animation Quality of the plot How the characters profile develop throughout the story Does it fit the genre well Too much fan service (tho this "can" be personal) Screen time of important characters If it's an adaption, how well was it made etc... Just because you can't see/analyse those things, don't make a stupid post talking about how "impossible" is it to judge an anime objectively. There is a reason you have movies, music critics as well as book critics. It's the opposite, critics have been losing job here and there in case you didn't know since how you define quality is subjective. http://www.pajiba.com/think_pieces/the-economics-of-movie-reviews-or-why-so-many-film-critics-continue-to-lose-their-jobs.php |
VyzassJan 4, 2018 7:26 AM
| 'America is a stolen country' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8WZ0ztMuc Zapredon said: It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person. Totally agree! |
MortalMelancholy said: Paradigmatic said: @Nocturn3 Oh boy that's a lot of things your assuming I'm saying. Anime is a medium that doesn't deal with the concrete rather with the abstract. As such, you can't say that you're being objective in saying that a "story is good because it is well structured" compared to saying that a carbonated water has acidic properties. I mean sure there are entire school of thoughts behind researching what makes a good story but at the end of it all they are dealing with an abstract and they can only deal with consensus to actually agree with a standard. Hence, my point that it isn't really "objective", it's more of guides or suggestions on what makes a good story. What does it mean to judge something in an objective manner? Does it even take into consideration that anime as a whole deals with the abstract. Animation maybe the only element that deals with the concrete idea, the question "does it move well?" The fact that an animation moves well can be appreciated differently and that the question that if good animation translate into a good anime would yield different answers. It's true that you won't be able to judge artistic or aesthetic value objectively, but there's plenty that can be. As far as animation itself goes, you should be asking; "Is the art consistent?" "What more does the animation tell you than just dialogue alone?" "How frequent are the keyframes in the animation?" "How much, if at all, do they re-use stock footage?" "How much did they make use of shitty cheap CGI? " etc. But, are those the things that brings value to an anime, overall and if it is, how? This again is a point of contention and where you really can't go all in with objectivity. I mean you can if we have a definite answer to the question,, "what makes an anime, anime?" We know that it involves animation but it's also a visual story telling medium. How much does the technicalities of story writing, screenplay, cinematography, sound design , etc. etc. contribute into what an 'objectively' good anime is? One of my main points is that this is where it all gets subjective. |
| Why is there an objective or subjective crowd in the first place? Entertainment and art is neither 100% objective nor 100% subjective. Art isn't a science so to say you could be entirely objective fact on what is good is ridiculous especially when it comes to stuff like comedy. Secondly there are standards and literary conventions or generally held perceptions on what is good and for good reason so it can't be 100% subjective either. I am surprised people get this worked up over a topic like this... |
HyperL said: AmMar-Sama said: Not really. Death of the Author doesn't mean it's okay to spew nonsense, since the story we have in front of us is still a restriction to an extent. I mean, I can't go around claiming that Okabe is actually gay for Rukako with a straight face. I see my way of judging stuff as the most logical one here, but meh. If you like doing it that way, go ahead. Whatever floats your boat man. I didn't watch the show so I wouldn't know. But hypothetically speaking, if the author truly came and said that it didn't happen, then it didn't happen. It's their work and they can decide what's canon and what isn't. I'm not a supporter of ignoring the canon and any opinion that is build by disregarding canonical facts is, to me, less valid than than those that don't. I find it isolating to say that everyone should only look at authorial intent when judging art. Art, afterall, is an expression by the creator. If you don't share the exact same context for which that expression came from (which no one else does), you WILL feel differently about it, no matter how subtly, due to the differences between every human whose nuance is completely unavoidable. Personally, I find that if there comes a case where the author's intention isn't that interesting to you, but your own interpretation is, and that allows you to learn something about yourself you otherwise wouldn't, that is leagues more valuable than if you were to ignore your own emotions and try and force yourself into the author's shoes just to see how it works for people who aren't like you. Of course, I think it's healthiest to do both, because you'll understand more perspectives, but to ignore your own experience is to ignore something very important. Experienes are what mold you into who you are. If you always arbitrarily remove yourself from the work you are experiencing, you're abandoning your own personal cultivation and mimicking authors and people you won't always entirely agree with. Both Death of the Author and authorial intent should be considered before any value judgement, because they both strive for what the ultimate goal of art is: To allow us to understand more about ourselves, other people, and humanity in general. |
Fado-chaneJan 4, 2018 10:24 AM
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Fado-chane said: HyperL said: I didn't watch the show so I wouldn't know. But hypothetically speaking, if the author truly came and said that it didn't happen, then it didn't happen. It's their work and they can decide what's canon and what isn't. I'm not a supporter of ignoring the canon and any opinion that is build by disregarding canonical facts is, to me, less valid than than those that don't. I find it isolating to say that everyone should only look at authorial intent when judging art. Art, afterall, is an expression by the creator. If you don't share the exact same context for which that expression came from (which no one else does), you WILL feel differently about it, no matter how subtly, due to the differences between every human whose nuance is completely unavoidable. Personally, I find that if there comes a case where the author's intention isn't that interesting to you, but your own interpretation is, and that allows you to learn something about yourself you otherwise wouldn't, that is leagues more valuable than if you were to ignore your own emotions and try and force yourself into the author's shoes just to see how it works for people who aren't like you. Of course, I think it's healthiest to do both, because you'll understand more perspectives, but to ignore your own experience is to ignore something very important. Experienes are what mold you into who you are. If you always arbitrarily remove yourself from the work you are experiencing, you're abandoning your own personal cultivation and mimicking authors and people you won't always entirely agree with. Both Death of the Author and authorial intent should be considered before any value judgement, because they both strive for what the ultimate goal of art is: To allow us to understand more about ourselves, other people, and humanity in general. My problem is not much about your experience with the art but the misinterpretation of information within the art. Idk, can't explain well. Are you a fan of Persona 4? Ever heard of the controversy surrounding it? It's pretty much the best example of what misinterpreting story elements can do. |
| You are not your body, you are your brain, the "self" that emerges from within it. |
Kittens-kun said: AltoRoark said: ^This. It's really unfortunate that people here are less concerned about the fundamentals of judging art and would rather use these terms as a defensive barrier to ward off discussions, invalidating anything without any sort of basis. If people in this community weren't so repellent of others' opinions then arguments like these wouldn't be so cancerous. That's funny, because doesn't the objective crowd do the same thing? That's exactly what I said. Both sides are being equally reductionist and refusing to delve deep into the actual subject at hand, barring a few individual exceptions. Also, judging from what little substantial input you've actually given in your posts, you're part of the problem as well. Pretty much all your arguments boil down to "yes it is", "no it isn't", "nope that's subjective" instead of legitimate points. It's the perfect example of why these arguments about objectivity/subjectivity almost never go anywhere meaningful. |
Paradigmatic said: MortalMelancholy said: It's true that you won't be able to judge artistic or aesthetic value objectively, but there's plenty that can be. As far as animation itself goes, you should be asking; "Is the art consistent?" "What more does the animation tell you than just dialogue alone?" "How frequent are the keyframes in the animation?" "How much, if at all, do they re-use stock footage?" "How much did they make use of shitty cheap CGI? " etc. But, are those the things that brings value to an anime, overall and if it is, how? This again is a point of contention and where you really can't go all in with objectivity. I mean you can if we have a definite answer to the question,, "what makes an anime, anime?" We know that it involves animation but it's also a visual story telling medium. How much does the technicalities of story writing, screenplay, cinematography, sound design , etc. etc. contribute into what an 'objectively' good anime is? One of my main points is that this is where it all gets subjective. By definition, there cannot be an "objective good" of any sort. The point is that you can judge it objectively, with measurable and comparable standards. As for the result of such a judgement; think of it as production value. You can objectively put a price tag on anything, but that won't determine the full extent of its value. Still a pretty good indicator. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
HyperL said: Fado-chane said: I find it isolating to say that everyone should only look at authorial intent when judging art. Art, afterall, is an expression by the creator. If you don't share the exact same context for which that expression came from (which no one else does), you WILL feel differently about it, no matter how subtly, due to the differences between every human whose nuance is completely unavoidable. Personally, I find that if there comes a case where the author's intention isn't that interesting to you, but your own interpretation is, and that allows you to learn something about yourself you otherwise wouldn't, that is leagues more valuable than if you were to ignore your own emotions and try and force yourself into the author's shoes just to see how it works for people who aren't like you. Of course, I think it's healthiest to do both, because you'll understand more perspectives, but to ignore your own experience is to ignore something very important. Experienes are what mold you into who you are. If you always arbitrarily remove yourself from the work you are experiencing, you're abandoning your own personal cultivation and mimicking authors and people you won't always entirely agree with. Both Death of the Author and authorial intent should be considered before any value judgement, because they both strive for what the ultimate goal of art is: To allow us to understand more about ourselves, other people, and humanity in general. My problem is not much about your experience with the art but the misinterpretation of information within the art. Idk, can't explain well. Are you a fan of Persona 4? Ever heard of the controversy surrounding it? It's pretty much the best example of what misinterpreting story elements can do. I haven't played it, and I don't trust myself to find information on it without getting spoiled. :c Though I think you can have a misinterpretation of something if you want, even if you become familiar with the author's intentions, as long as you've considered the intention and still feel as if it wasn't properly communicated. Most people will probably change after learning of the author's intentions and observing the work again through that lense, but if their true feelings don't change, I don't consider it to be an invalid stance. Granted they can argue why the author's intent didn't get to them. |
Fado-chaneJan 4, 2018 12:20 PM
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AltoRoark said: That's exactly what I said. Both sides are being equally reductionist and refusing to delve deep into the actual subject at hand, barring a few individual exceptions. Also, judging from what little substantial input you've actually given in your posts, you're part of the problem as well. Pretty much all your arguments boil down to "yes it is", "no it isn't", "nope that's subjective" instead of legitimate points. It's the perfect example of why these arguments about objectivity/subjectivity almost never go anywhere meaningful. That's because I don't need an argument. Saying you can judge anime objectively is obvious bullshit. I shouldn't need to explain why. Making multiple posts that are paragraphs long doesn't automatically make someone right. |
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Kittens-kun said: AltoRoark said: That's exactly what I said. Both sides are being equally reductionist and refusing to delve deep into the actual subject at hand, barring a few individual exceptions. Also, judging from what little substantial input you've actually given in your posts, you're part of the problem as well. Pretty much all your arguments boil down to "yes it is", "no it isn't", "nope that's subjective" instead of legitimate points. It's the perfect example of why these arguments about objectivity/subjectivity almost never go anywhere meaningful. That's because I don't need an argument. Saying you can judge anime objectively is obvious bullshit. I shouldn't need to explain why. Making multiple posts that are paragraphs long doesn't automatically make someone right. If you don't want to argue, that's fine. But don't act as if you're making actual arguments or doing any favors. Because at the moment you are, at worst, reinforcing the stigma of how subjectivists are just afraid of criticism and exchange of opinions. Also, what you say about making paragraph-long post applies to you as well. If you having nothing to argue with or explain, then why bother posting at all? Regardless of what you say about those paragraph-long posts, they at least contain actual arguments, which is worth far more than what your constant "that's bullshit" rebuttals can offer. |
AltoRoark said: Kittens-kun said: That's because I don't need an argument. Saying you can judge anime objectively is obvious bullshit. I shouldn't need to explain why. Making multiple posts that are paragraphs long doesn't automatically make someone right. If you don't want to argue, that's fine. But don't act as if you're making actual arguments or doing any favors. Because at the moment you are, at worst, reinforcing the stigma of how subjectivists are just afraid of criticism and exchange of opinions. Also, what you say about making paragraph-long post applies to you as well. If you having nothing to argue with or explain, then why bother posting at all? Regardless of what you say about those paragraph-long posts, they at least contain actual arguments, which is worth far more than what your constant "that's bullshit" rebuttals can offer. I'm not acting like I'm making an argument. Again, I don't need to. You don't need an argument explaining why the Earth is round, the sky is blue, or water is wet do you? No. These are facts. Just like it's a fact that nothing in entertainment is objective. Plus, afraid of criticism? Not really. It's more like, we don't have to listen to someone shitting on us for not arguing everything we say. I can say I liked or disliked something, and there is literally no need for me to explain myself. And me defending my stance by saying that everything is subjective, isn't a lazy cop-out. It's the god damn truth. |
TsukuyomiREKTJan 4, 2018 4:30 PM
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Nocturn3 said: @Vyzass "here and there" is farm from making it irrelevant dude. We're not talking about the type of objectivity as in "this anime is good, that one is trash" per se, but more as in: There are certain factors you can judge objectively, and those can serve as guidelines to evaluate anime. And if critics were irrelevant, you wouldn't have as many prizes every year... Your signature just says everything. Just another hater you dislikes everyone who tries to watch anime with a critic eye. You people missed all the point with all your elitism criticism. Most people, the ones that actually care, don't criticise for the sake of criticising, but because they want improvements. Same as in life with your job or studies. They are far different things to compare, but I guess you get the point. Criticism is necessary for improvement. I agree that there are certain factor you can judge objectively such as animation frame rate but disagree it must be used as guideline to determine quality. That is up to each individual to decide. You don't improve something through critic you improve it by buying it. Critic don't improve anything. Critic relevant because we have price every year? You mean like Tokyo Anime Award where judges from university give award to best anime and shows like SAO, K-On and Code Geass won it? That is objective? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_Anime_Award |
VyzassJan 4, 2018 5:28 PM
| 'America is a stolen country' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8WZ0ztMuc Zapredon said: It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person. Totally agree! |
Comic_Sans said: The people who claim everything is subjective are often the same people who have shit like Naruto and Tokyo Phoul in their favorites. In other words, they're not worth taking seriously Everything is subjective and this is the only objective statement. The way how series is directed is subjective. You could like action oriented direction, I hate action oriented direction and I would praise dialogue oriented direction and this would be my objective statement and huge advantage, but your disadvantage. Same goes to music. Many people loves generic orchestral shit and they would praise any shit like this and say that it's objectively good, but for me it's a complete shit and objectively crap. More - art. For me only hand drawn 2D animation can be objectively good, and everything with more than 40% CDCG is objectively the worst crap. There is no such thing like objective judgment, especially if it comes to media. |
rsc-pl said: >Code Gayass Season 2 a 8/10Everything is subjective and this is the only objective statement. The way how series is directed is subjective. You could like action oriented direction, I hate action oriented direction and I would praise dialogue oriented direction and this would be my objective statement and huge advantage, but your disadvantage. Same goes to music. Many people loves generic orchestral shit and they would praise any shit like this and say that it's objectively good, but for me it's a complete shit and objectively crap. More - art. For me only hand drawn 2D animation can be objectively good, and everything with more than 40% CDCG is objectively the worst crap. There is no such thing like objective judgment, especially if it comes to media. I'm sorry, you were saying? |
 Nico- said: Conversations with people pinging/quoting me to argue about some old post I wrote years ago will not be entertained@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite |
| I thinking asking people to be completely objective is rather much (and difficult to boot). For the sake of fostering discussion, all I want is for people to be able to explain their conclusions. I'm more interested in the thought-processes that lead up to it, rather than the conclusion itself. For instance, sometimes I think Deku from Boko no Hero Academia is inspiring. In the fourth episode of season 1: Or, I could just hit a post saying "I think Deku is inspiring due to various scenes." I much prefer the longer version, even if it almost rambling, because I'm interested in how other people's mind work. I think that was probably a thought on characterization. I should probably have used a more technical example like the animation in Hero Academia. |
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| I love and also hate this topic. I can understand both sides, the people on the objective side is not saying this anime is trash or this anime is good, but is more saying certain elements in a story van be pivjed out as bad or good. Plot hole is an objective fact that it is bad writing. But everything else is basically subjective to the core, art can be interpreted differently by each individual, also the beauty of art is that there is tons of different ways one can write a story, what these objective folks dont realise is that following a set of principles or guidelines will actually limit what art overall has to offer, it means we will get the same type of writing style, the same boring formula over and over, this limit what art has to offer, and prevent people from thinking outside the box, and not following the norm. That applies to everything in life, for example a lot of guys are looking one girl, who do you think the girl would be interested in the most? 9 guys that has the same personality? Or the unique one that stands out from the rest? This is to tell you that you dont have to follow the book. Basically following the guidline does not mean it will be a great or fresh story. There is various ways a character can be written, the same for the plot etc. This is why I cant get behind the objective side, because they are stuck in one place, following some guidelines that was created a long ass time ago, you cant be innovative if you are going to stick by the book and dont think that changes can be made. @AltoRoark And for the folks saying people that are on the subjective side use it to repel criticism, that is wrong actually, the reason people use the term is because you folks come with your objective bible, telling us that we are all wrong and that they are right, no one likes someone that looks down or put themself above anyone, I am sure you guys dont mean it, but that is what it comes across as, just by using the word objective, it gives you guys the reassurance that you are right. I believe that most of art is subjective, but I still like and dislike anime, I still debate about what I believe is good writing and bad writing, like objective and subjective folks are actually the same, the only difference is one think that they are truly right because they have proof and that proof is that objective writing is real even though they have no proof to back it up. This is the real kicker here, all the folks that are on board with the objective side, has a very polarize rating for their anime, if you guys are on the same side, why is it that you all rate so differently? One person gave this anime a 3 , while another gave it a 9. I thought you guys had the same special god eyes to detect objective writing in a instance? I am sorry too many plot holes for me to buy into this bullshit, this is a clear indication that you all believe in it, but you all have your own idea on what you see as objective writing/flaws in a series, which means you all have been downgraded in the subjective category. The end! |
keragammingJan 4, 2018 10:30 PM
MortalMelancholy said: Paradigmatic said: But, are those the things that brings value to an anime, overall and if it is, how? This again is a point of contention and where you really can't go all in with objectivity. I mean you can if we have a definite answer to the question,, "what makes an anime, anime?" We know that it involves animation but it's also a visual story telling medium. How much does the technicalities of story writing, screenplay, cinematography, sound design , etc. etc. contribute into what an 'objectively' good anime is? One of my main points is that this is where it all gets subjective. By definition, there cannot be an "objective good" of any sort. The point is that you can judge it objectively, with measurable and comparable standards. As for the result of such a judgement; think of it as production value. You can objectively put a price tag on anything, but that won't determine the full extent of its value. Still a pretty good indicator. This is how I actually view things(barring the use of "objectivity") but an indicator is just that an indicator. When it comes to something as art, there isn't any intrinsic, inherent or fixed value to art. I would argue that the value of art is in the people consuming it. |
Graumann said: I agree with you that thought process is the most important. However I would characterize that example as being articulate, well thought out, specific, effectively communicated, critically thought, etc., as opposed to vague, vacuous, unsupported, poorly thought out, etc. It's not really a matter of being objective or impartial, as opposed to subjective or biased.I thinking asking people to be completely objective is rather much (and difficult to boot). For the sake of fostering discussion, all I want is for people to be able to explain their conclusions. I'm more interested in the thought-processes that lead up to it, rather than the conclusion itself. For instance, sometimes I think Deku from Boko no Hero Academia is inspiring. In the fourth episode of season 1: Or, I could just hit a post saying "I think Deku is inspiring due to various scenes." I much prefer the longer version, even if it almost rambling, because I'm interested in how other people's mind work. I think that was probably a thought on characterization. I should probably have used a more technical example like the animation in Hero Academia. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| @keragamming FYI, I'm not part of the "objective" crowd. I firmly believe that subjectivity dominates when it comes to quality, with a varying degree of objectivity in the mix. @harpseal2 The "problem" with omitting the subjective aspect when judging art is that you're utimately left with nothing of worth to say. Let's say some objective god or whatever claims a certain show to be good or bad, based on metrics. What kind of value or significance would that even have? Declaring quality and enjoyment to be separate entities is reasonable. But spouting shit like "this is my favorite anime, even though it's not good" is downright ludicrous. |
| @AltoRoark I agree with harpseal2, just because some element aren't objectively good, it doesn't mean you can't enjoy the anime. One of my favourites is Beck, but I realize that art/animation there is not something to be proud of. |
Nocturn3 said: @Vyzass Sorry, but that's stupid. Talk with anyone at every single profession, who is excellent at what they do, and they will tell you constructive criticism is crucial to further develop. Improving by buying? Can you even explain that?! That's exactly the opposite. If you buy something in mass, most companies will just settle for what they have, that's basic economics lol... About those shows, that's only 1 example, you can't generalise all critics based on one or 2 examples. It's a fallacy... You had/have a good point, but sorry, those arguments are shit. Oh please, as if companies/studios will bother listen to criticism. They don't give a shit about critics. LOL! Buying a product that you think is of good quality help studio to understand what is considered as good quality and boycotting anime do you think is bad quality help studio understand what is bad. Yes, constructive criticism is crucial but guess where does this constructive criticism come from? It's from legitimate customer of course not those self entitled pirate who think the word revolve around him and think every anime community need please him. Of course, there are many jobless pirate anime out there try to convince themselves they are relevant to the anime industry by being a pretentious critic. There are also Kobe Animation Award where Code Geass and K-On are once again winners. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animation_Kobe#Television_Award See, going by your logic, Code Geass, SAO and K-On are objectively good anime because that is what the critic says. So if you don't think Code Geass, SAO and K-On are objectively good anime, then you are objectively wrong as those critics are more qualified than you on this matter. It means that you don't have critical thinking ability to make objective analyse on anime. Japanese anime critics = Code Geass, SAO and K-On are objectively good anime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_Anime_Award#Television_Category Also, you are contradicting with yourself. Why can't we use one or few samples of critics to generalize all other critics. If you are saying different critics will have different opinion on what makes a good quality, then that means quality is subjective as different critic themselves will have different way of defining what are good quality. |
VyzassJan 5, 2018 4:02 AM
| 'America is a stolen country' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8WZ0ztMuc Zapredon said: It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person. Totally agree! |
Paradigmatic said: MortalMelancholy said: By definition, there cannot be an "objective good" of any sort. The point is that you can judge it objectively, with measurable and comparable standards. As for the result of such a judgement; think of it as production value. You can objectively put a price tag on anything, but that won't determine the full extent of its value. Still a pretty good indicator. This is how I actually view things(barring the use of "objectivity") but an indicator is just that an indicator. When it comes to something as art, there isn't any intrinsic, inherent or fixed value to art. I would argue that the value of art is in the people consuming it. I'd say you're right about that, but that's the reason media entertainment, including anime, is going to shit. People are too easily pleased, and producers are employing the cheapest, minimalist methods to make garbage that is just barely able to make people willing to watch it. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Oh for God's sake, I'm away for a few months and as soon as I come back I see THIS THREAD again? Really? I mean, COME ON. Please. Approach this stuff in a nuanced manner. Consider that there ARE things you can objectively measure and at the same time there are things you CAN'T. Considers that objectivity-subjectivity is not a zero-sum game, that one can be LESS subjective (even though they'll NEVER be 100% objective, ever). This isn't binary. And frankly, even though I've been away for a while, I have NEVER seen a thread or discussion started by someone who thinks you CAN judge things objectively 100% of the time. Methinks this is a meme kept alive by people who argue against it BY arguing against it constantly. If people didn't keep arguing against it, maybe it would have died long ago? |
Fvlminatvs said: Oh for God's sake, I'm away for a few months and as soon as I come back I see THIS THREAD again? Really? I mean, COME ON. Please. Approach this stuff in a nuanced manner. Consider that there ARE things you can objectively measure and at the same time there are things you CAN'T. Considers that objectivity-subjectivity is not a zero-sum game, that one can be LESS subjective (even though they'll NEVER be 100% objective, ever). This isn't binary. And frankly, even though I've been away for a while, I have NEVER seen a thread or discussion started by someone who thinks you CAN judge things objectively 100% of the time. Methinks this is a meme kept alive by people who argue against it BY arguing against it constantly. If people didn't keep arguing against it, maybe it would have died long ago? What's amazing is that they are no closer to a resolution than 6 pages ago. Unless posts are systematically addressed, well-thought out and taken forward with good communication, this will just continue until everyone gets bored of the thread. Rather a waste, but it'd be silly to expect much more. |
| @MarthPryde That "everything is subjective" stance is more a defense mechanism to avoid Learning about the medium, as far as I'm concerned. Better make these threads and spout that nonsense than spending time doing the microscopic amount of research needed to understand stuff like the difference between animation and art style (I swear half the community can't, and will never be able to because "lol it's subjective") |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
| the problem is not objectivity on it's own or it's concept, the problem is how it used as buzzwords.... people who go full "everything is subjective" isn't much different since it simply pathetic justification, which ironicaly same thing that make word "objective" abused to begin with.... Fvlminatvs said: Oh for God's sake, I'm away for a few months and as soon as I come back I see THIS THREAD again? Really? I mean, COME ON. Please. Approach this stuff in a nuanced manner. Consider that there ARE things you can objectively measure and at the same time there are things you CAN'T. Considers that objectivity-subjectivity is not a zero-sum game, that one can be LESS subjective (even though they'll NEVER be 100% objective, ever). This isn't binary. And frankly, even though I've been away for a while, I have NEVER seen a thread or discussion started by someone who thinks you CAN judge things objectively 100% of the time. Methinks this is a meme kept alive by people who argue against it BY arguing against it constantly. If people didn't keep arguing against it, maybe it would have died long ago? when you forcing your "objective" standard like it was the solely "truth" in "art", it's where it become a problem.... it's about how it used, which fail most of time rather than isn't... it make you lose the touch with common audience and lost footing with reality creating elitism that make them left by common mass.... |
KumaJan 6, 2018 4:21 AM
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: when you forcing your "objective" standard like it was the solely "truth" in "art", it's where it become a problem.... it's about how it used, which fail most of time rather than isn't... it make you lose the touch with common audience and lost footing with reality creating elitism that make them left by common mass.... Well, this is my big question, then, Kuma.... WHO is forcing their "objective" standard? I don't see anyone doing it. Well, not here, anyway. From what I see, people only play the "objectivity card" AFTER somebody busts out the "everything is subjective" card. My point is, perhaps if the subjectivity crowd quit harping on it, the meme would die. |
Fvlminatvs said: Kuma said: when you forcing your "objective" standard like it was the solely "truth" in "art", it's where it become a problem.... it's about how it used, which fail most of time rather than isn't... it make you lose the touch with common audience and lost footing with reality creating elitism that make them left by common mass.... Well, this is my big question, then, Kuma.... WHO is forcing their "objective" standard? I don't see anyone doing it. Well, not here, anyway. From what I see, people only play the "objectivity card" AFTER somebody busts out the "everything is subjective" card. My point is, perhaps if the subjectivity crowd quit harping on it, the meme would die. I always thought when someone said "everything is subjective" is actually another way to say "Let's agree to disagree" which seems fine and make sense to me unless there's something else I miss. |
VyzassJan 6, 2018 7:28 AM
| 'America is a stolen country' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8WZ0ztMuc Zapredon said: It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person. Totally agree! |
Fvlminatvs said: Kuma said: when you forcing your "objective" standard like it was the solely "truth" in "art", it's where it become a problem.... it's about how it used, which fail most of time rather than isn't... it make you lose the touch with common audience and lost footing with reality creating elitism that make them left by common mass.... Well, this is my big question, then, Kuma.... WHO is forcing their "objective" standard? I don't see anyone doing it. Well, not here, anyway. From what I see, people only play the "objectivity card" AFTER somebody busts out the "everything is subjective" card. My point is, perhaps if the subjectivity crowd quit harping on it, the meme would die. then you simply not in the internet forum for long.... oh man, make me remember when thatanimesnob still a thing.... and the whole thing started by elitism rather than overly defensive subjectivism, they act like that because they attacked.... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Nothing worse than a westerner with an opinion about Japanese advertising anime. |
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Kuma said: then you simply not in the internet forum for long.... oh man, make me remember when thatanimesnob still a thing.... and the whole thing started by elitism rather than overly defensive subjectivism, they act like that because they attacked.... You're kind of proving my point. Does anybody take him seriously anymore? No. His Patreon is virtually dead, his main channel has been annihilated, and he's clinging to YouTube by his fingernails. Nobody watches him. So, with the exception of soon-to-be memetic corpses, who keeps beating this horse lately? I don't care who started it half-a-decade ago. I really don't see and haven't seen many of these elitists banging around that are given any credibility by the overall community anymore. They've been relegated to the dustbin of being considered "trolls to ignore." The only threads I see at all nowadays are the ones started by the "subjectivity" crowd. I did a quick search and here are the threads that came up since 2016 with the word "objectivity" in the title: "If there is objectivity in anime how come only few anime finds success especially profit wise?," "'Objectivity' is Useless and Here's Why," "Reviews in a World of Subjectivity," "Why do some people believe in 'objectivity' when it comes to story telling mediums?," and "All reviews and rating are bias, there's no objectivity. stop over valuing ratings." The next further back, "MAL reviews and subjectivity," is DOMINATED immediately by subjectivity people. You have the second post on "Objectivity or Subjectivity," the following thread, and it's predominantly pro-subjectivity. It isn't until March 2016 that a thread titled "Subjectivity - Objectivity - What's in an Anime" starts the first post with someone explaining how there are some specific things that can be objectively measured, resulting in a shit-storm. March, 2016. That's the last time somebody started a thread talking about objectivity. Nearly two years ago. If you ask me, pro-subjectivity-people won't let this argument die and keep trotting it out as a straw-man for no discernible reason I can fathom. Really? What makes Japanese advertising anime so mysterious, pure, and magical that a Westerner can't critique it? |
FvlminatvsJan 6, 2018 5:42 PM
Fvlminatvs said: Really? What makes Japanese advertising anime so mysterious, pure, and magical that a Westerner can't critique it? I do not wish to start an argument, but anime is not aimed at westerners. Please see this thread for more information. Anime is effectively the ultimate form of advertising for a manga, it shouldn't be treated as a medium in it's own right, this article explains where money in the anime&manga industry comes from, and it is not westerners pockets. p.s. I'm a westerner myself |
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Fvlminatvs said: Kuma said: then you simply not in the internet forum for long.... oh man, make me remember when thatanimesnob still a thing.... and the whole thing started by elitism rather than overly defensive subjectivism, they act like that because they attacked.... You're kind of proving my point. Does anybody take him seriously anymore? No. His Patreon is virtually dead, his main channel has been annihilated, and he's clinging to YouTube by his fingernails. Nobody watches him. . which proving my point how usueless it is... Kuma said: the problem is not objectivity on it's own or it's concept, the problem is how it used as buzzwords.... people who go full "everything is subjective" isn't much different since it simply pathetic justification, which ironicaly same thing that make word "objective" abused to begin with.... it make you lose the touch with common audience and lost footing with reality creating elitism that make them left by common mass.... Fvlminatvs said: So, with the exception of soon-to-be memetic corpses, who keeps beating this horse lately? I don't care who started it half-a-decade ago. I really don't see and haven't seen many of these elitists banging around that are given any credibility by the overall community anymore. They've been relegated to the dustbin of being considered "trolls to ignore." The only threads I see at all nowadays are the ones started by the "subjectivity" crowd. I did a quick search and here are the threads that came up since 2016 with the word "objectivity" in the title: "If there is objectivity in anime how come only few anime finds success especially profit wise?," "'Objectivity' is Useless and Here's Why," "Reviews in a World of Subjectivity," "Why do some people believe in 'objectivity' when it comes to story telling mediums?," and "All reviews and rating are bias, there's no objectivity. stop over valuing ratings." The next further back, "MAL reviews and subjectivity," is DOMINATED immediately by subjectivity people. You have the second post on "Objectivity or Subjectivity," the following thread, and it's predominantly pro-subjectivity. It isn't until March 2016 that a thread titled "Subjectivity - Objectivity - What's in an Anime" starts the first post with someone explaining how there are some specific things that can be objectively measured, resulting in a shit-storm. March, 2016. That's the last time somebody started a thread talking about objectivity. Nearly two years ago. If you ask me, pro-subjectivity-people won't let this argument die and keep trotting it out as a straw-man for no discernible reason I can fathom "overly subjective" is oftenly overly defensive than using as attack argument... seriously it's not rocket science.... it obvious how it's all started... they feel threatened because they feel attacked.... that's all there is to it.... the current mess about new will smith movie on netflix also showing how noticable elitism in art criticism... people want to entertained, not some fucking long ass deep couple pages of explanation... we are not live in bourjouism era anymore while art only by and for connoisseur... |
KumaJan 6, 2018 6:07 PM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
agilityredfox said: Fvlminatvs said: Really? What makes Japanese advertising anime so mysterious, pure, and magical that a Westerner can't critique it? I do not wish to start an argument, but anime is not aimed at westerners. Please see this thread for more information. Anime is effectively the ultimate form of advertising for a manga, it shouldn't be treated as a medium in it's own right, this article explains where money in the anime&manga industry comes from, and it is not westerners pockets. p.s. I'm a westerner myself I think if a westerner or any other non Japanese buy anime legitimately,they have every right to critique it. They are legitimate customer unlike some pirate people who do not pay and yet, critique anime thinking Japan need to please him. These type of people are self entitle. A thief do not have right to critique. |
| 'America is a stolen country' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8WZ0ztMuc Zapredon said: It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person. Totally agree! |
Vyzass said: agilityredfox said: I do not wish to start an argument, but anime is not aimed at westerners. Please see this thread for more information. Anime is effectively the ultimate form of advertising for a manga, it shouldn't be treated as a medium in it's own right, this article explains where money in the anime&manga industry comes from, and it is not westerners pockets. p.s. I'm a westerner myself I think if a westerner or any other non Japanese buy anime legitimately,they have every right to critique it. They are legitimate customer unlike some pirate people who do not pay and yet, critique anime thinking Japan need to please him. These type of people are self entitle. A thief do not have right to critique. I semi-agree with you there, but again, speaking strictly from a business point of view, offering your opinion is going to make no difference, it would basically be like dropping a stone in the ocean. you'd never see any result in the long term. People who aren't the intended audience offering critique are doing so for their own self-satisfaction. but that's just my opinion. |
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agilityredfox said: Vyzass said: I think if a westerner or any other non Japanese buy anime legitimately,they have every right to critique it. They are legitimate customer unlike some pirate people who do not pay and yet, critique anime thinking Japan need to please him. These type of people are self entitle. A thief do not have right to critique. I semi-agree with you there, but again, speaking strictly from a business point of view, offering your opinion is going to make no difference, it would basically be like dropping a stone in the ocean. you'd never see any result in the long term. People who aren't the intended audience offering critique are doing so for their own self-satisfaction. but that's just my opinion. Yeah, the intended audience will always be the Japanese as Japanese make up for most of the legitimate customer. |
| 'America is a stolen country' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8WZ0ztMuc Zapredon said: It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person. Totally agree! |
| @Fvlminatvs The anime community as a whole actually in some shape or form on objectivity in this medium(if it isn't obvious with the responses in this thread and the thread you searched). Of course the people holding the opposite view (no matter how valid their reasons for having it) will be outspoken. It's actually generating discourse on this subject instead of just thinking that objectivity is a given. |
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